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	<title>Comments on: Goal-oriented vocabulary - saying what you mean</title>
	<atom:link href="http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary</link>
	<description>It's all behaviour</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Colin Jack</title>
		<link>http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-12224</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 01:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-12224</guid>
		<description>"I am concerned, though, that your readership is starting to think BDD scenarios are meant to replace Programmer Tests, the kind that help programmers drive low-level design. I hope they’re wrong."

I agree, there is definitely a growing group of people who do use BDD at the lower levels and don't seem to believe in the scenario/story driven approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am concerned, though, that your readership is starting to think BDD scenarios are meant to replace Programmer Tests, the kind that help programmers drive low-level design. I hope they’re wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree, there is definitely a growing group of people who do use BDD at the lower levels and don&#8217;t seem to believe in the scenario/story driven approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Behaviour Driven Development &#171; The Turning Point</title>
		<link>http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-10557</link>
		<dc:creator>Behaviour Driven Development &#171; The Turning Point</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 08:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-10557</guid>
		<description>[...] Olhando por aí, uma justificativa interessante que eu achei foi a seguinte, no blog do Dan North: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Olhando por aí, uma justificativa interessante que eu achei foi a seguinte, no blog do Dan North: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: J. B. Rainsberger</title>
		<link>http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-10465</link>
		<dc:creator>J. B. Rainsberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 14:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-10465</guid>
		<description>Dan, I really appreciate all the work you're doing to advance the integration of analysis and design. I think it's fantastic, but I'm worried that, although the lexicon of BDD is meant to clarify, it obscures something. In particular, it seems to me that BDD scenarios are meant to replace what we commonly call story tests, and I think that's a great idea. At the analysis level in particular, calling these things examples or scenarios, rather than tests, keeps everyone involved in analysis(1) focused on two important goals: understanding what we're building, and knowing when we can stop building it. I am concerned, though, that your readership is starting to think BDD scenarios are meant to replace Programmer Tests, the kind that help programmers drive low-level design. I hope they're wrong.

When we come down to low-level design, it's not enough to drive the desired behavior and hope that results in enough tests to cover the space. If we're practising evolutionary design, then we need tests as a pool of change detectors to aid in refactoring. I find this statement not to be enough: "My goal as a developer is to deliver a system that behaves in a particular way. Whether or not it has tests is an interesting metric, but not the core purpose." My goal is to be able to deliver such a system regularly and indefinitely, which implies not only having the right behavior, but also having low cost of maintenance, and the less easily I can refactor, the more the marginal cost of a feature rises. I write tests to ward off project heat death, and I'm concerned that if we abandon tests entirely, we will lose that intention.

So it seems to me that the choice of BDD or Story Test-Driven Development is largely one of taste and style. As you write, teaching the concepts without the word "test" have their definite benefit; however, I imagine that if we tell programmers to specify behaviors and not write tests, we'll lose something valuable indeed. It may be that we need to teach them BDD first, but I don't think we should breed the desire for testing out of them.
----
(1) I prefer everyone on the team be involved in analysis, but I recognize how rare that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, I really appreciate all the work you&#8217;re doing to advance the integration of analysis and design. I think it&#8217;s fantastic, but I&#8217;m worried that, although the lexicon of BDD is meant to clarify, it obscures something. In particular, it seems to me that BDD scenarios are meant to replace what we commonly call story tests, and I think that&#8217;s a great idea. At the analysis level in particular, calling these things examples or scenarios, rather than tests, keeps everyone involved in analysis(1) focused on two important goals: understanding what we&#8217;re building, and knowing when we can stop building it. I am concerned, though, that your readership is starting to think BDD scenarios are meant to replace Programmer Tests, the kind that help programmers drive low-level design. I hope they&#8217;re wrong.</p>
<p>When we come down to low-level design, it&#8217;s not enough to drive the desired behavior and hope that results in enough tests to cover the space. If we&#8217;re practising evolutionary design, then we need tests as a pool of change detectors to aid in refactoring. I find this statement not to be enough: &#8220;My goal as a developer is to deliver a system that behaves in a particular way. Whether or not it has tests is an interesting metric, but not the core purpose.&#8221; My goal is to be able to deliver such a system regularly and indefinitely, which implies not only having the right behavior, but also having low cost of maintenance, and the less easily I can refactor, the more the marginal cost of a feature rises. I write tests to ward off project heat death, and I&#8217;m concerned that if we abandon tests entirely, we will lose that intention.</p>
<p>So it seems to me that the choice of BDD or Story Test-Driven Development is largely one of taste and style. As you write, teaching the concepts without the word &#8220;test&#8221; have their definite benefit; however, I imagine that if we tell programmers to specify behaviors and not write tests, we&#8217;ll lose something valuable indeed. It may be that we need to teach them BDD first, but I don&#8217;t think we should breed the desire for testing out of them.&#8212;&#8212;(1) I prefer everyone on the team be involved in analysis, but I recognize how rare that is.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Colin Jack</title>
		<link>http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-9578</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-9578</guid>
		<description>"I often describe BDD as outside-in development. You start at the outside with an automated scenario, and work inwards, discovering services and collaborators as you go, until you’re done."

I understand this style of development/design, especially if you focus on collaborations/interactions. Having said that I'm not sure that the resulting specifications are good examples of usage, or at least I'm not sure they will then act as good acceptance criteria.

So what I'm really wondering is how you make BDD work practice? 

I'm certainly coming to my own understanding of BDD but I'm finding it hard to get a good understanding of the best way to do use it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I often describe BDD as outside-in development. You start at the outside with an automated scenario, and work inwards, discovering services and collaborators as you go, until you’re done.&#8221;</p>
<p>I understand this style of development/design, especially if you focus on collaborations/interactions. Having said that I&#8217;m not sure that the resulting specifications are good examples of usage, or at least I&#8217;m not sure they will then act as good acceptance criteria.</p>
<p>So what I&#8217;m really wondering is how you make BDD work practice? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m certainly coming to my own understanding of BDD but I&#8217;m finding it hard to get a good understanding of the best way to do use it.</p>
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		<title>By: Behaviour Driven Development &#171; Frank&#8217;s Corner</title>
		<link>http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-9394</link>
		<dc:creator>Behaviour Driven Development &#171; Frank&#8217;s Corner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dannorth.net/2008/02/goal-oriented-vocabulary#comment-9394</guid>
		<description>[...] Olhando por aí, uma justificativa interessante que eu achei foi a seguinte, no blog do Dan North: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Olhando por aí, uma justificativa interessante que eu achei foi a seguinte, no blog do Dan North: [...]</p>
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